Jill Greenberg is a Sick Woman Who Should Be Arrested and Charged With Child Abuse
Update: Got a thank you note in the form of part of a comment from Paul Kopeikin the gallery owner where Jill's work is being shown right now.
Update #2. I think Jeremiah McNichols has written the most well articulated piece on the Greenberg controversy that I've seen published yet.
There is a thread over at the Flickr group Utata today about artist Jill Greenberg's latest show at the Paul Kopeikin Gallery called End Times. And it's sickening.
The ethics of photography are by no means simple -- shooting strangers, permissions, capturing pain and suffering, many different subjects require that photographers think through their ethics before coming up with the best way to make and display their work. There are a lot of gray areas and a lot of different opinions on many different areas of what should be captured and what should not be captured. I generally fall into the camp of just about anything ought to be ethical for capture assuming it's natural and the photographer is working as a witness, bystander, artist, photojournalist, citizen journalist, etc.
But what Jill Greenberg is doing makes me want to throw up. And it shouldn't be allowed. I'm torn about even posting this post because she is obviously using her art as an excuse to do something horrible and is looking for publicity and response and that's exactly what I'm giving her here. But I'm hoping that through others being made aware of what she is doing that somehow pressure might be borne to stop it from happening.
So what is Jill Greenberg doing? She is taking babies, toddlers under three years old, stripping them of their clothes and then provoking them to various states of emotional distress, anger, rage etc. -- so that she can then take photos of them this way to "illustrate her personal beliefs." If you'd like to see how worked up she can get these kids you can click through here. Be warned that it is graphic. Although the children are not sexualized, I consider what she is doing child pornography of the worst kind.
Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to a photographer capturing all emotions of humans. I think that capturing the tears of a child that naturally take place all the time (believe me, as a father of four I know) is one thing. But for her to say that she "manipulates her subjects to evoke an emotion," and then citing things like giving them a lollipop and then taking it away from them just to see them cry and get angry and then shoot them, this is just wrong.
Irrespective of her statement as an artist this is evil. And it is evil to collect these images of children who through the bad judgment of their parents ultimately have no say.
When the Michael Jackson trial was going on people kept saying, what kind of parents would let their child spend the night alone in a room with Michael Jackson. It seemed absurd. And it seems absurd that any parent who loved their child would purposely take their children to Greenberg's studio to then be tormented to the point of emotional outrage.
We should all be outraged by this horrible woman who has sought to somehow justify her actions under some kind of artistic immunity. This is not art, this is child abuse. It is the purposeful action of creating anger in a beautiful child for the sadistic purpose of making a name for herself as a pop artist.
I'm not sure what can be done about Greenberg. I'm not sure if the law would in fact define child abuse as purposefully inflicting emotional pain on a child but something should be done and this is not something that we as an enlightened society should tolerate.
I'm willing to generally give artists a great deal of latitude. But this is sick. As a parent I'm outraged and as a human being this is wrong. This little boy breaks my heart. I'm not sure how to stop this but it needs to be stopped.
Update: Jill Greenberg's husband, Robert Greenberg responds: i'm married to the artist in question. with that said, some facts: jill did not "abuse" the children, nor abuse them. they were given lollipops, and then those were removed from the kids. jill didn't speak to them--the parents were there monitoring the whole time. this is the EXACT technique used in ads and movies and TV. i'm a producer in two of those mediums and have been through this before, so i know whereof i speak.
some of these kids are our daughter's friends, some of them are in fact...duh duh duh...our own daughter. they still come over for playdates. they don't seem any worse for wear.
the pictures have spoken to you, evoked pain and anguish--that, i must say, was jill's intention. i'm not in agreement with your argument as much as its foundation is on the facts--you obviously didn't know them.
that said, an opinion is an opinion. i just think, in this age of snap judgements and instant analysis, that we should all do our part to do as much research as possible before making very harsh accusations. jill 's methods are described by her on her gallerists website--you even link to it!
anyway, my two cents, but i'm (very) biased.
471 Comments:
I beg you to please find something better to do with your time. It would appear to me that rational thought, nor writing, seems to be your forte.
Your "opinion" on this topic means nothing, and the artist need not explain her reason for her art. For you to attempt to belittle her work just amplifies your ignorance so that we all can see it clearly. Good day.
--Bikr
Emotionally abusing children sure isn't the type of 'art' I support. I wonder if these kid's parents have any idea what happens (or are present) at the photo shoots and if they share some responsibility. Sheesh.
Come on now. When is the last time a kid throwing a temper tantrem was a sign of abuse. She is invoking these emotions, however, it's not something kids don't do on their own anyway. They will not be emotionally harmed by this, nor will they even remember it happened. Take your american families b/s back to the White House.
Bikr,
How about this. Is it ok for us to take photos of prisoners in Abu Ghraib with them in distress as long as we don't harm them physically? What about dignity? Look at the faces on these children. These are not minor annoyances. These are children expressing deep emotional anger and reactions. Will they get over it? Sure. Is it right? No. What greater good comes out of this so called art?
It is one thing to capture a moment in life when children naturaly express emotion. But for a photographer to take an active role in enraging a child It is quite another to purposefuly manipulate them into anger. Other than the fact that the children were manipulated we know very little. Did it last for 10 minutes, 2 hours? Multiple sessions? Would it matter to any of you? The artist wants to tantilize and sensationalize. It's irresponsible. These children are too young to express an opinion. How will the child react when someone from their 11th grade class emails everyone in their class their photo in anguish with the subject line being cry baby? You just don't know and the children are too young to consent.
Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the subject being a father of four myself. I'm certainly willing to concede that my emotions could be getting the better of me here. But to intentionally inflict emotional pain on a child for no valid reason is wrong. Will a child who is teased and bullied and driven to tears on the school playground get over it? Sure. But it's not right. If a teacher did this they would lose their job. Why is it ok for an artist? Why is the mantle of art somehow justification to be cruel?
If the ignorant of the KKK can still walk around and hold rallies I really doubt anything is going to be done about this lady.
This actually makes a good conversation piece because I've seen kids freak out in stores when their parents make them put back a toy or stop them from licking the floor. I mean gut-wrenching, heart-breaking wails. That she provokes the kids is mean but I'm guessing it's *nothing* compared to what siblings do to each other. If you are an only child you probably won't understand.
Just had to add that the "Bikr" commenter is one of those Art Haus people that give artists such a bad name.
I know my share of performance and edge artists and there are some that are big into the whole "I don't have to talk about my art, it just is" yet they still inflict it upon people. If artists don't want their tender little egos smacked around they need to keep their art in a basement. Good art of any kind provokes emotions both postive and negative. Once art is exposed then everyone has *equal* right to love/hate it.
Another great thing about art is that it is *only* opinion. There is no wrong or right to how a person views it, an art critic or another artist's opinion is in no way better or worse than a blue-collar dock worker.
For this Bikr persona to try and nullify your opinion is actually a huge insult to the artist he/she/it is trying to defend. All great artists I've known would rather people have a negative opinion of their work than no opinion or even just a lukewarm one.
I may disagree with your opinion on certain topics but I sure as hell respect your right to have one.
Although those feelings and expressions might be normal for kids, but it's very sickining to consider provoking those bad feelings and capturing them as art.
Those pictures really made me feel bad.
I hate to see any kid like that.
Shawn. Not only am I a father of four. I am the oldest child in a family of seven. Certainly sibling rivalry, teasing, etc. all happens in life.
The point is that for an artist to intentionally inflict distress for some misguided sense of protesting the Bush administration is wrong.
It's bullying. Even though bullying does happen, we should not let it happen this publicly without some level of outrage.
What happens when a child is bullied to the point that they shoot up a school? I'm not saying that this will be the outcome of these photos. But I'm saying that to somehow allow bullying as "art" you are legitimizing it any number of contexts. A teacher does this. Fired. A doctor does this, he/she loses her medical license. A student does this to another, he's punished with detention or suspension. But an artist, well, I guess artists are automatically granted some special right to be cruel.
While I don't condone what this person is doing I read your entire post and didn't see one mention of the parents of these kids. What parent would allow their kids to go through this and why do you give them a pass?
SuG, re-read the post. I definitely implicate the parents. They are perhaps most guilty of all as they hava a moral obligation not to exploit their children.
I in fact brought up the analogy of parents letting their kids sleep overnight in bed with Michael Jackson.
Parents do really cruel, hurtful, harmful things sometimes.
I consider myself a pretty strong social libertarian, and I have a fairly "anything goes" attitude towards art, but the very idea of this woman tormenting young children in the name of "art" makes me sick to my stomach.
Causing unnecessary (key word) suffering in other people is wrong, period. Even if you only stand by and allow one person to torment another (as the parents have done in this case) you are participating in such torment. Claiming that what you're doing is "art" is no excuse.
Is it somehow necessary for these children to be tormented in this way? Hardly. If Ms. Greenberg has something she needs to say, she can find better ways to say it.
It's art. Unquestionably.
That it has provoked the reaction it has, TH, speaks to your own issues. That you've chosen to invoke pop-references such as Michael Jackson and Abu Ghraib (references who's implications are blatanly obvious - child molestation and human degradation) rather than just saying "Hi, I'm Thomas Hawk and these photos make me think of molestation and abuse" tells me you're not even comfortable articulating your own reaction.
In short, you posted long, long before you had time to think this out.
Whether or not this is art is not what TH has taken issue with. Whether or not anyone agrees with the intended message of the art (which I do) is not what TH has taken issue with. The question is whether the method used to create the art is moral. If immorality is defined as willfully causing (or failing to prevent) unnecessary suffering, then the method is unquestionably immoral, and threatens to bring the art down to the level of (non-sexual) pornography, regardless of whatever higher goal the artist may have in mind.
Don't confuse my outrage with the popular outrage over works like Piss Christ or similar. I have no problem with those. Adults can choose not to view such works if they find them disturbing, and nobody is the worse for wear. However, when children are forced into deliberately traumatic situations they don't understand for no purpose other than to create art, it's entirely different.
matman makes some great points.
I don't worry if this is art or not as that's a debate to last the ages but instead I wonder a few things...
She obviously knew this was going to provoke a reaction, so this just feels cheap.
I don't think that the kids will suffer any emotional harm from this but I do worry about someone that so easily justifies the means to their end.
I've also been surrounded by artists my whole life and one thing that seems a constant is that their art is usually part therapy. I wonder what she personally gets out of these sessions. I can't think of anything healthy that's for sure.
Grr, my brain just locked. Anyone remember the mother that took pictures of her kids in b&w and there was a huge uproar about it, people saying it was pornography. Ahh bollocks, there goes my whole train of thought.
If anyone else is as outraged as Thomas is and as I am regarding the treatment of the children in these images, you might condider sending an e-mail to the owner of the Paul Kopeiken Gallery, who will be showing Jill's work later this month. Here's his e-mail address. paul@paulkopeikingallery.com
I just thought of a great art project. How about we fill a pinata with live kittens and take pictures as an entire birthday party of little kids takes turns beating the living hell out of it!
Think of the "emotional reaction" we can capture! Think of the emotion we can "provoke" from those who view it. Now that's true art!
I've seen 4 year olds taking pictures with cellphones. Why not give a camera to a kid and tell them to take a picture in school or at home with their brothers/sisters when they're starting to fight/scream/cry... It would be more authentic & not feel like abuse, right?
What disturbs me, and btw the only difference I see between bullfighting, and hidden camera sketches and this photos is the inability of a child or baby to fight back the "torture"..
Believe me, I am an advocate for preserving bullfighting, but at least the bull can make some damage to the artis (or bullfighter), a child does not have that opportuinity and that is what makes this whole thing wrong..
Boy are you people misguided. Does every crying child mean that he or she has been abused? Anyone imagining abuse in Jill Greenberg's photographs brings that to the images because it is simply not there. So ask yourselves why you are so obsessed with child abuse that you seek it out where it doesn't exist?
1) When a parent takes a toy she doesn't own and can't afford to buy from her child in a store, it is necessary, crying and screaming notwithstanding. For Ms. Greenberg to do what she has done is not necessary.
2) She and the children's parents can choose whether or not to torment the children. The children have no choice as to whether or not they are tormented.
Hmm...it walks like abuse and quacks like abuse...
Ok, let's think this through a little bit.
We have a woman who is very skilled at photographic illustration. Who presumably is also skilled at digital manipulation of photographs, and who certainly employees technicians who have those skills. Who operates a business intimately entwined with the culture and technology of contemporary Hollywood filmmaking. Who operates that business in a state that has a well developed regulatory framework around the employment and care of child models and actors. Who operates that business in the light of day, presumably with offices and a studio and record keeping and archives of her activities available for investigation by public entities. Who bills herself as a Manipulator (http://www.manipulator.com/).
Is the most likely account of these photographs really that Jill Greenberg is a serial child abuser? Or is it more likely that something else going on here?
You're making a huge presumption here -- that what the photography is doing is harmful, based only on the image you see. You're seeing the result but not the process that got the results. "Invoking emotional distress" can mean a lot of things, in a wide range. Knowing that her art would be seen publicly by a lot of people, do you really think this person would do anything blatantly criminal? You can invoke this type of reaction by handing a child a wonderful toy, letting her play with it for a few minutes, then yanking it away suddenly and arguing about returning it. I know, I've got 2 young kids myself. Is that "abuse"? No. Is it manipulative and unkind? Yes. Is the end result art? Definitely.
Finally someone who has a clue.
Jill Greenberg freely admits that she makes the children in her images cry. She manipulates the images to look almost painted, but the underlying photograph is of an actual child crying. With that said...
I think the word "abuse" is being thrown around just a little too lightly here, and consequently causing people to jump into the fray without fulling thinking their responses through. Lets look at what is actually going on:
Ms. Greenberg is taking lollipops away from toddlers, who throw screaming, soul-wrenching tantrums as a result. Kids that age are prone to tantrums with very little provocation, which is why Greenberg doesn't use models over the age of 3 or so (as she says on her website).
So yes, she's tormenting these kids, but not to the point that it's going to cause them any harm. I really don't think the word "abuse" is appropriate in the grand scheme of things.
I don't like the idea of deliberately (and unnecessarily) making a child cry. As a previous poster said, it is manipulative and unkind. However, that being said, the *end result* is art.
While the question of the means justifying the end certainly looms large in this instance, we would all do well to at least look at her artist statement and examine the political and artistic value of what she's produced.
Why hasn't anyone thought of this as, oh I don't know, perhaps exploitative?
There are enough REAL autrocities and injustices inflicted upon children every minute in every corner of the world. It saddens me to think an educated mother, business person and artist such as Jill has to create or manipulate little people to express her outrage.
Bikr, you sound so FABULOUSLY unique, IMPORTANT, talented and brilliant in your observations, there could only be one of you.
Genius is your burden to bear.
Please have patience with the dull-witted American masses - devote yourself to their enlightenment, and ferchrissake DONT HAVE ANY CHILDREN. (FYI I don't)
Sexual predators need to dominate so tears are direct result of the domination. I find these images repulsive on so many levels let alone the "manipulation". Captured grief in a photo journalistic sense is painful to view also, but at least there is truth.
I gues the only nice thing I could say about these images is that they capture the need to dominate.
What I find almost as disturbing as the willful harassment of children for "art" is the fact that so many defend it.
What I find most disturbing is that so many are willing to characterize this project as abuse based on such flimsy grounds. Do you also believe that this woman is taller than the federal capitol? If so, be sure to report your EVIDENCE here, and perhaps the authorities will soon come and make MUGSHOTS of Greenberg. She has a RAP SHEET, you know.
You people need to understand like Thomas and I do that photographers need to have the freedom to do whatever they need to and go wherever they need to in order to take photographs. These are basic civil rights of ours, and no matter how hard the neo-cons in this country try to fool people into giving up those rights, photographers will continue to do whatever has to be done to get that perfect photo. You can hassle us all you want under the guise of preventing terrorism or saving children, but what we do is something on a higher level. We're expressing those very rights of freedom in photographs as an example of why we can never let the conservative, right-wingers in this country get their way. It's amazing Bush and backwards-thinking goons haven't already tried to stop Jill Greenberg from enjoying her civil rights by locking her up in Guantanamo Bay. We are artists, and just because we don't think the same way you may think when it comes to artistic subjects such as photographs of children, it doesn't mean you can dictate the rules we live by.
@Jeremiah, who said "It's art. Unquestionably."
Bullshit. If I would vomit in your face, and then take photographs because of your "interesting expression", would you call it art, too? Not everyone running around with a camera is automatically an artist.
Greenberg is sick, and so are you, dude. Maybe you are one of those parents that allowed Greenberg to shoot their kids.
If Greenberg's photos included animals that were tormented in any form, I'm sure all sorts of animal rights people would stand up to stop it. So it's equally (or even more) important that Greenberg is stopped.
That's exactly what I've been thinking about ever since I looked at those photos. If someone teased my cats until they hissed and swatted just to get a photo of a hissing and swatting cat, I'd bust 'em in the chops and kick them out of the house.
I have photos of kids throwing fits in public, both on video and stills. I never publish them. I identify with their anguish.
The thought of someone provoking that kind of emotional response brings back some bad memories.
If we have to call it "art," it's BAD art. It makes me sick.
To "anonymous" posters:
Don't "@so-and-so" anyone in this thread, mmkay? If you don't have enough conviction in what you say to put your name/face to it, you really don't have anything to say to me.....or anyone else.
It's not abuse in the sense of outright torture, but there is something demented and uncomfortable about willfully causing another pain and manipulating another's emotions for the sake of the perfect shot. This is even more true when the subjects are children who have no voice of their own, at least not one that isn't a cry that the photographer wanted to capture in the first place.
for heaven's sake, people, chill out.
First of all, it's not abuse. taking something away from a child is not abuse. it happens all the time.
"These are not minor annoyances. These are children expressing deep emotional anger and reactions."
This statement is just idiotic. seriously, i've seen kids cry just as intensely because they weren't allowed to hold something dangerous like a knife.
This is how child development works, people:
from birth to a very young age, children cry, and we attend to their needs immediately. Crying is a way they communicate a need to adults, since they cannot vocalize. this is what they learn as babies. babies have a very small worldview, and thus their desires are generally few. examples of things they communicate to us are needing food, needing changing, illness, needing attention.
as children get older, thir worldview grows, as does their curiosity. this is when they start learning lessons - rightfrom wrong, good from bad. many, many times, children are *not* given what they want. the world is no longer revolving around them as it used to, and they are not getting everything they demand. generally this can cause crying, temper tantrums, and the like. and sometimes, they can be pretty severe. this is a LEARNING process. they bgin to understand that there is a world and others they interact with, and not every demand can be met.
Don't believe me? do a websearch on Child Social Development. ask your pediatrician. talk to a child psychologist.
A question - how is a child made to look upset in diaper commercials? in movies? on tv? in advertisements? i guarantee you it's using the same tactics as this artist. Are you outraged about that? are you boycotting all media? You should be, if you truly, honestly think this is abuse.
Most certainly, CALM DOWN. taking an item away from a child is not abuse. a child crying does not indicate abuse. there are far, far worse instances of *actual* child abuse that are much, much more worth getting activist about.
Wholly aree with the previous comment about child development.
I read your post and can see that it is heartfelt so I wont try to change your opinion there, but I do feel that you have completely blwon this out of all proportion.
Do we know how exactly she got these children to cry? No.
They may of been crying because they were placed on their own on the floor and lots of scary people were standing around them taking photos, who knows.
Art is what you make of it and you made this out to be abuse and mental anguish, I disagree but maybe that is exactly the feelings she was trying to evoke in the viewer.
how did she get them to cry?
from her own words:
"I had to learn the hard way that they had to be no older than three because beyond that they just don't cry so easily," Greenberg explains. "At that age, one needs to merely give them a lollipop and then take it away, et voila - pain and agony."
OH NOES THEY WERE DENIED A LOLLIPOP!!!
heaven forbid someone take a sugary, tooth-rotting piece of candy away from a child. The torture! Those kids will be traumatized FOREVER!!!!
I hear they really aren't kids but short actors all over the age of 18 that signed contracts and were paid handsomely for their time and energy. As you can tell they are all very convincing. The tears have been artificially sprayed on and the drool is tree sap for its texture. You've all been dupt into believing they are really children. Jill Greenburg is brilliant and my only saddness comes that I didn't think of it first. To really know the full story we will all have to go to the opening show and ask her in person.
I wonder what kind of lollypops she used? Any thoughts?
Jeremiah said...
To "anonymous" posters:
Don't "@so-and-so" anyone in this thread, mmkay? If you don't have enough conviction in what you say to put your name/face to it, you really don't have anything to say to me.....or anyone else.
Hey Jeremiah - after being hunted down and harassed online in my regular spots by some internet folks who didn't agree with some comments i made, i prefer to be anonymous in places i'm not familiar with. it has nothing to do with conviction, mmmkay?
Although the children are not sexualized, I consider what she is doing child pornography of the worst kind.
So you consider this worse than sexualized child pornography? Any arguement you could have made lost all it's credibility when I read that part.
full disclosure: i'm married to the artist in question. with that said, some facts: jill did not "abuse" the children, nor abuse them. they were given lollipops, and then those were removed from the kids. jill didn't speak to them--the parents were there monitoring the whole time. this is the EXACT technique used in ads and movies and TV. i'm a producer in two of those mediums and have been through this before, so i know whereof i speak.
some of these kids are our daughter's friends, some of them are in fact...duh duh duh...our own daughter. they still come over for playdates. they don't seem any worse for wear.
the pictures have spoken to you, evoked pain and anguish--that, i must say, was jill's intention. i'm not in agreement with your argument as much as its foundation is on the facts--you obviously didn't know them.
that said, an opinion is an opinion. i just think, in this age of snap judgements and instant analysis, that we should all do our part to do as much research as possible before making very harsh accusations. jill 's methods are described by her on her gallerists website--you even link to it!
anyway, my two cents, but i'm (very) biased.
"Art is truly a success when it evokes an emotion from virtually every viewer."
All I have to say is, "Go Jill!" Keep it up, you're a talented photographer.
I don't mean to derail from the topic of Jill's work and its debateable propriety. I simply think the issue of morality and potential long-term effects of art on (non-?)consenting participants is applicable in great deal to Sally Mann's plight.
The dynamic aspect of studying Sally Mann here is that you all can read what those children who were the subjects for "questionnable" photos said about their experience once the ability to process these ideas was available to them.
It would be nice to see Thomas note your reply here, Mr. Green, and perhaps offer to temper his (overtly emotional) responses in the future.
To TH: I got nuthin' but luv, bro. Mr. Green has posted a very level headed reply - I hope you can engage him.
Jeremiah, I just posted Robert Green's response to the original post. While I still do not agree with the concept of evoking tearful reactions from children for the purpose of creating art I certainly must consider that having four little ones of my own may play into how I view the current debate.
As a father it is hard for me to imagine a loving individual trying to evoke such striking responses from children for the purpose of making art. While certainly parents virtually daily encounter tantrums with their children these are typcially part of a natural growing of the child and are typically in response to the child doing something that is not good for him or her.
When my son William cries because he does not want to go to bed this is acceptable to me. It is in the interest of William's health that he get the sleep that he needs for his day ahead. I still don't like to see him cry but over time he will learn that sleep is indeed a helpful thing.
We do have lollipops too in our family. And once when William had snuck the entire jar of lollipops and I found him with the jar I took it from him and he cried. It is though not good for William to eat 50 lollipops. This is bad for his health. But this is very different than my intentionally teasing William by giving him one and then taking it away from him. It's unnecessary cruelty and benefits William in no way.
Part of what bothers me with Jill's art is that the child does not benefit from the transaction and the fact that it is not just part of capturing every day life but rather purposefully this angst is inflicted.
But even more bothering to me than the fact that Jill uses these tactics for her art is the degree to which the children in her pieces are visibly upset. Jill does not just give these kids a lollipop, click the photo and quickly give it back.
These children are very worked up. They are not just crying. They are driven to a much greater degree of emotional frustration. While I can understand that she might want the most intense response possible for her work I think that the child should not have to bear the cost of this.
I love children very much. I feel very protective of children. As a father of four again, my feelings undoubtedly cloud how I view this issue. But as an artist it is not a line that I would cross. It is cruel and it is not right.
You are all idiots. Stop getting worked up over a story you are making up in your heads. Look deeper. Honestly..... child abuse!? Anyone seen a child scream like its their last breath ever when they are having a tantrum? Anyone realize it is a normal behavior? The fact you think these kid are in so much pain shows how good a photographer Jill Greenberg is. Focus your energies into somthing useful. There was no emotional abuse- if a child getting upset is abuse, every last one of you woudl be in prison.
I am a starting photographer and artist. The reason I write this comment is to express my personal opinion.
I first saw Jill's work when I serfed net for something interesting. I accidently apeard on Jills site, and to tell the truth I wasn't impressed... But when I saw those photos of children I didn't know how to express my amusement.
Every time I see these photos I get mad. Because children Are always treated like this, but nobody shows and notices them. Photos were taken like they were painted pictures. And my opion is that author wanted to tell: This should not be happening!
I don't know why do people judge Jill as if she don't have a right to tell the truth.
As long as this children were ok, and weren't harmed, I heel before Jill.
You people are all crazy! "the Little boy" as is linked in the first article is my nephew. I know as a fact that he was not harmed in any way. He is an actor with Ford models and as soon as his session was up, he stopped crying and told his mom he is hungry and wants to go to Hamburger Hamlet to eat. So all of you people making assumptions, it's so typical. Why don't you do a little research before persuming anything. These photos are beautiful and I am proud to have my nephew involved in this artist's project. And I wish I could purchase this photo for my nephew as a gift.
This is the problem you have? With Americans Dying in Iraq; New orleans in rubbles; our economy in the toilet and you have a problem with this???? You half-baked blow hard who makes no sense . . . the parents are present at all times . . . as a fther of 4 children . . . you might want to be concerned with your government that will send your children to war . . . for oil that will be over $100 a barrel. talk about abuse . . .
I was there My child was not "tormented " in any way or sense of the word .How ignorant for you to pass such a judgement on something you weren't even present for....If you truly have children you know they will cry at the drop of a dime.How many times have you left your child at preschool and he is wailing?Who is affected for the rest of the day ??Not the child but the parent the child is fine ten minutes later..Bravo to Jill!!!! it is sad that it takes the harmless innocence of a child to evoke a response ,but that is art.It is your warped,cynical perception that has to twist it into something like child abuse!!!!Unless you were present at the shoot you should keep your comments and your sheer ignorance to yourself!!!!!Like many others have posted why dont you use your outrage towards another cause ,one that truly deserves outrage( Like the war)how desensetized are we???? find a worthwhile cause
Child abuse is what priest do to children. The 10 or 15 minutes the photos took are not going to leave permanent scars on these children's life's. Use your time for something constructive as you clearly have much of it.
TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED the 1930's 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's !!
First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank
while they carried us.
They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can,
and didn't get tested for diabetes.
Then after that trauma, our baby cribs were covered with bright
colored lead-based paints.
We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets
and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the
risks we took hitchhiking.
As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air
bags.
Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a
We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle.
We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO
ONE actually died from this.
We ate cupcakes, white bread with sugar in it, but we weren't overweight because
WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as
we were back when the streetlights came on.
No one was able to reach us all day. And we were O.K.
We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and
then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After
running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.
We did not have Play stations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video
Games at all, no 99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat
rooms. WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!
We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there
were no lawsuits from these accidents.
We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not
live in us forever.
We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although we were
told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the
door or rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them!
Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those
who didn't we had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!
The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was
unheard of They actually sided with the law!
This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers,
problem solvers and inventors ever!
The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we
learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!
And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS!
You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to
grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our
lives for our own good. And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will
know how brave their parents were.
Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors,
doesn't it
I don't quite agree that Jill Greenberg should be arrested but I do think that she (and anyone who allowed their child to be used in those portraits) obviously suffers from a sadistic personality. I clicked on the link and it made me sick to see all those crying faces staring back at me. Lolipop or not, it is sadistic and twisted. I can only imagine the hysterics Greenberg breaks out in to when her child falls or conks her head.
These children are all young. They are being used, manipulated and tortured. Intentionally. All for the financial gain and notoriety of a horrifically misguided and quite possibly imbalanced individual. My children would never be allowed within ten feet of your house! Is your next project shoving old women down staircases and wildly snapping their hysterical reaction.
I'm pretty sure that the children wouldn't suffer severe emotional trauma from this, nor is it the worst kind of child abuse.
Taking away a lollipop?
Kids cry over anything and everything.
Sometimes even over nothing.
Innocent children are being slaughtered daily by the Bush Administration in Iraq and Afganistan (and who knows shere else) so anyone worrying about the non existant abuse of the children in Jill Greenberg's photographs should immediately contact the White House to add their voice to ending the murder of children by this Republican Administration.
It is disturbing that all those posters defending the photographer and dismissing what is obviously being done to these children actually feel ok with what the photographer did and don't see anything wrong with it. I can only imagine they are the same people who voted for Bush for re-election, even though they knew he lied about Iraq. I'm even sure that they could characterize their vote for Bush as art, with the same twisted logic they defend this obvious abuse of a child at the hands of an adult.
And for what? What is Jill’s main driving force here? A comment on Bush and his policies? Hardly...that is just a convenient after thought. No, her motivation is perfectly clear...$4,500 a print. And of course the attention from the controversy that will surround these pictures, which will just make her photo’s worth even more, and perhaps make her the cause célèbre of the art world…much like what happened to Sturges when he dropped off his film at a hole-in-the-wall photo lab and arose the attention of the police and FBI, which made him financially successful and famous.
For those of you who cannot tell the difference between a small child crying “at the drop of a hat” or at a restaurant and the sheer fear and complete anguish that these children obviously have, I feel sorry for you. You are obviously so desensitized and morally bankrupt that it is scary we live together in the same society. However, it doesn’t surprise me, considering the American society we live in today.
The photographer, in her own words, is tormenting these children to “give her” the look and emotion SHE wanted. She stated that she often sends the parent out of the room (and made the statement of how she was a bit upset when this happened and 1 child DIDN'T cry). The parents, when they were in the room (and they often weren’t) are just as complaisant in this abuse of children who have NO control over the situation. Compounding the children’s obvious fear and anguish is the strobes going off while in that state. Professional models or not, this obviously compounds their distress level. The bottom line is that in the supposed trusting hands of parents and adults, these children were MADE to break down into complete emotional distress and anguish just for the sake of a photographers whim at taking a photograph…one that she will sell for at least $,4500 each. This is hardly art. This is abuse, and would be called such in any other situation where a child was involved. Teachers have been fired for less by parents whose child came home crying from school.
To hear just how unconcerned the photographer is, listen to this interview http://podcasting.americanphotomag....HOTOPodcast.mp3. The sad thing is that she also used her own child as one model, and subjected her/him to the same abuse as the others. This is NOT a healthy parent/child relationship.
A few misguided individuals posts from above:
“Knowing that her art would be seen publicly by a lot of people, do you really think this person would do anything blatantly criminal? You can invoke this type of reaction by handing a child a wonderful toy, letting her play with it for a few minutes, then yanking it away suddenly and arguing about returning it. I know, I've got 2 young kids myself. Is that "abuse"? No. Is it manipulative and unkind? Yes. Is the end result art? Definitely.”
It is clear that she thinks she has done nothing wrong. Ignorance of the law, and what is morally right, for the sake of a picture is no excuse. By your own words, you say it is manipulative and unkind. And you are ok with that? An adult being unkind and manipulative to a trusting child? That behavior, expressed by a trusted adult to a 3 year old child is incompatible which many laws in this country and is a sad comment, in my opinion, on the state of the American society. With this type of behavior towards children being held up as art, and sold for $4,500 a print, it no wonder we have this anything goes attitude that has given this country episodes like the Columbine shootings. The National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse and Neglect Information is a good source for information on what constitutes child abuse. And from the publication here http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/general/legal/statutes/defineall.pdf states: “Willful harming or injuring of a child or the endangering of the person or health of a child means a situation in which any person willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon, unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of the child to be placed in a situation in which his or her person or health is endanger.” WILLFULLY CAUSES ANY CHILD TO SUFFER, OR INFLICTS THEREON...MENTAL SUFFERING. Hmmm I wonder what that sounds like?
I also question your ability to raise a child. Unfortunately you have 2 children. I can only hope that make it through life with you unscathed.
“While the question of the means justifying the end certainly looms large in this instance, we would all do well to at least look at her artist statement and examine the political and artistic value of what she's produced.”
Any artistic statement cannot justify her purposeful actions to be brought down on children who have no choice in the matter or control over the situation. Forcibly making a child have an episode of tremendous anguish, as is indicated on their faces (these children are well beyond simply crying) is an act of abuse. She is abusing her power over them, as both an adult and what the child sees as a trusted friend to their parents. I doubt if she sat the children down and said “Ok here is what I am going to do. First, we will take off your clothes, then I will have you sit right over there. Next, my assistant here and I are going to do many things to get you to cry as hard as you have ever cried before. We will do that by having your parent leave the room, giving you some candy or a toy, and then grabbing it from you. We will do this over and over until you are crying good enough for me, and then these bright lights will flash over and over again, until I have a good enough picture. We will do this and there is nothing you can do to stop me. Thank you for your time and understanding, and participating in this historic event that is really a comment on my feelings towards the Bush administration. I am sorry we have to terrorize you like this, but you see, this is for the greater good. These pictures will make that bad man go away and stop hurting other children.” There is nothing that she has produced that justifies her actions towards these children. The hypocrisy is that she is terrorizing these children to cry so she can stop Bush from terrorizing children in Iraq. I guess Iraqi children deserve better treatment than our own children do. It is so good to have such young soldiers in the fight against Bush!
“We are artists, and just because we don't think the same way you may think when it comes to artistic subjects such as photographs of children, it doesn't mean you can dictate the rules we live by.”
And just because you think it is ok to terrorize children doesn’t make it right, in the eyes of the law or common society. Nor does it give you the right to dictate what is acceptable in this country for the sole purpose of enriching one photographer’s life at the expense of innocent children. Her “art” and political message are no better than the crap I took this morning. The end does not justify the means.
The sickest award, although the one above is close, goes to Nicole Rawley who said...
“Shawn Oster: I believe the woman you are referencing as having had an uproar caused by her B&W work is Sally Mann, one of my favorite photographers and heroes. She responds well to many issues brought up in this discussion here. Her oldest child, Jessie Mann, photographed many times in the buff, responds to these ideas, as a much older child (an adult) here.”
That isn’t so bad except for the fact that the link she supplies for the Aperture conversation with Jessie Mann, Sally’s daughter, is hosted on a website that states: “This web site is about and for women who are attracted to pre-teen and adolescent girls. Our primary goal is to give women and girls a tool for expressing their feelings and their love about this controversial topic, and to get people to open their minds to ideas about romantic and erotic attraction between women and girls.” http://www.bkgirls.org/frameset.html So basically a lesbian pedophilia web site. Why Nicole would link to a pedophilia website to justify Jill’s abusive actions towards children is beyond me. The fact that Nicole even KNOWS about this pedophilia website (are you a member too Nicole?) is sickening. Anything further that comes out of her mouth is useless.
And finally we have another person most likely to gain by this photographers pictures… Paul Kopeikin. Paul, of course, is the owner of the gallery where Jill’s photo’s will be shown, and the person with the 2nd most financial incentive to support this type of abuse being inflicted on children. Paul says:
“Innocent children are being slaughtered daily by the Bush Administration in Iraq and Afghanistan (and who knows where else) so anyone worrying about the non existent abuse of the children in Jill Greenberg's photographs should immediately contact the White House to add their voice to ending the murder of children by this Republican Administration.” (I corrected his mis-spellings).
So Pauls stance is pretty clear. He feels that there is no abuse in Jill’s terror tactics in forcing children to cry with such anguish, but if there was, there is much worse being done by the Bush administration, and you should bitch about that instead of about someone who he stands to make a great deal of money on…about $2,250 from each print. My question to Paul is since you are so concerned about the slaughter of children by the Bush administration, have you done anything else, on your own and something that will NOT provide you with financial gain, to stop such slaughter? Have you made your voice heard to your elected representatives? Written letters to the editor stating your disgust for what the Bush administration is doing to all those innocent children? Organized a protest or demonstration? Marched on the Federal Building or City Hall where you live? Have you given ANY money to ANY organization helping either end the war or supply relief efforts to either of those 2 nations? Yeah, I thought not. Your motives are clear and your interest is self-serving. Screaming “the sky is falling” (in other words Bush is bad) is nothing more than a ploy to deflect attention from the real issue here…Jill’s campaign of terror to force young children, who have no control over their situation, into a traumatic situation full of anguish and intensity, all for the sake of a photograph. And money…don’t forget the money. I’m sorry Paul, but that is about as lame as the “We are artists…” guy above.
About the poster: I am a 47 year old white male, father and primary caregiver of a 9 year old daughter. Politically I am on the far left and have put my body on the line, and been arrested, on issues ranging from nuclear plants (Diablo Canyon) and weapons design (Lawrence Livermore and Sandia National weapons labs), to violence against women issues to the support of abortion rights. I am an artist, and have been in the photography business for over 25 years professionally, and 35 years all together. Primarily I do fine art black and white printing and my prints have been in museums and galleries all over the world. I choose not to use my name here because of the obvious reasons. I don’t need to get spammed to death, nor do I wish to become some whipping boy for people who can’t really fathom the issue being discussed here. However, that does not diminish the opinions I gave, or the reality checks I pointed out. To say so otherwise is just plain dumb. If we lived in a society that could handle such discussions without knee jerk and abusive reactions, I would gladly publish my real name. But when we live in a society that seems to be ok with a trusted adult purposefully terrorizing a child and inflicting emotional trauma on that child for the sake of a photograph, and trying to hang some political justification on it to make it “ok”, there is just no way that any sane person would publish their name and subject themselves to the hate emails that would certainly come.
Hopefully my posts will open some minds. I fear that the sick minds out there that support this far outnumber sane and morally responsible people who see these actions for what they are…abuse.
And that is sad.
boy, i agree with you! even if she didn't manipulate them to display this type of emotion it is extremely unethical to make it a practice to routinely capture and market this level of pain.
these children are not simply sad, they are enraged and screaming bloody murder.
a photo was once taken of me in this state at the same age, and i was laughed at while the photo was taken. i now see this photo as an incredible disrespect to my feelings and looking at it makes me sad.
she is a very sick person to call this art, but the parents are even more demented to purposefully put their child through this.
good for you for taking a stand against it and bringing it to others' attention.
If taking away a lollipop from a child is abuse, then every responsible parent is an abuser. Why does adding a camera into the mix make it more abusive? I am also a parent, and I have seen my children having tantrums over nothing at all, or the taking away of an object they knew they were not supposed to have (like a lollipop).
Basically what Thomas Hawk is doing here is taking away the artist's lollipop, and now she and her husband are freaking out.
Basically what Thomas Hawk is doing here is taking away the artist's lollipop, and now she and her husband are freaking out.
I just have a really simple question for the "omg defend the poor defenseless photographer lady!!". If you had a kid would you encourage a stranger or "friend" to teach your kids the reward system of acting out?
Actually an even better question is what are these parents doing making money off of their children? I'm sure these kids aren't all little 40 year old experienced actors in 3 year old bodies. That's the real abuse, mommy and daddy couldn't hack it as actors so let's make a buck or two off junior.
I don't care how you justify it, if you make money by provoking a negative reaction in a minor and only for the sake of recording that negative reaction you're a useless waste of doggerel. I personally think that a blank canvas displays more art than anything Jill Greenberg could possibly imagine. Granted after perusing the images I see the real art is in her negotiating technique. Anyone who can convince a gallery to display this "art" has got to be an amazingly talented bullshit artist.
Leave art to the people willing to sacrifice their own happiness Jill rather than using kids to make your mark. It'll make you seem more human and less of a user.
Also I'm reading this wonderous article as a result of the Greenberg's crazy techniques. Quit art while you're not too far behind Jill. Both you and your husband have been outclassed by your own incompetence in trying to get TH to pull his post.
Thomas Hawk seems like an overprotectove parent. We dont really know the details, so why come out guns blazing? With such a vengeance? These look like they were shot at 1/250 of a second at most and when a shutter or strobe fires this quickly it can capture some unusually graphic moments. In other words, these kids may have only cried for a minute, and the photographer may have gotten dozens of frames off. If these kids had their lollies taken, cried for a minute, or what the hell, a few minutes, it should not leave deep emotional scars. Over protective parents? Years of therapy. Thomas Hawk should calm down before lashing out, and realize that hes just being provoked by these images as they were intended to provoke. Hook line and sinker. The Greenbergs likewise should realize that when they portray these kids looking so upset, they're gonna have some vociferous blogger busting a outraged nut over it. Their counter attack is unneeded.
I'm a amateur photographer. Not a great one, but enough of one that I think of what I do as art.
I dislike kids. I think they are loud, annoying obnoxious creatures, that I want nowhere near me.
Regardless, I agree fully that the actions needed to do this are at best unethical.
Each shot probably ended up requiring several minutes of shooting to catch the emotion just right.
Sure, the kid isn't likely to suffer lasting harm... but then the photographer wouldn't suffer lasting harm if somebody broke her leg with a baseball bat, and then took pictures of her expression, would she? A couple months later, and her leg would be as good as new, right?
Ther're just 1) really distressing images; 2) not actually that interesting, or even that well shot; 3) obviously there for the press coverage rather than anything else. Ignore her and she'll hopefully go away.
I would NEVER kill someone to photograph his death.
Is Greenberg any different from the paparazzi who yell out insults or even assault unfortunate 'celebrities' they are photographing? They do this because it's good busness: an emotionally intense picture of someone is going to earn them more money.
Greenberg is charging four figures a print for the images of the children she has distressed. I think she is a fraud to call it art.
And people who belittle the children's obvious pain and distress by saying 'it was only about losing a lollipop' yada yada disturb me too. Is it going to lead to an even creepier form of bullying? Do they have to cause worse harm to the children before these pseuds and faux-artists recognise a real human being feeling pain?
And if you describe yourself as left/liberal for supporting such abuse, then I, as a longterm left/liberal, don't recognise you: we left/liberals used to be associated with compassion and empathy and altruism, not stupid, nasty cruelty. Shame on you.
Please, don't mix things up. While this is definitely abusive, it is not child pornography.
i would just like to say that the photos are awfull anyway, abuse or no abuse.
I stumbled here through BoingBoing.. I see
"some of these kids are our daughter's friends, some of them are in fact...duh duh duh...our own daughter. they still come over for playdates. they don't seem any worse for wear."
Looks like this husband of hers speaks of children as if they were an object such as a screwdriver or a hammer, there to be used when conveniant, their own daughter included.
I do not support her 'art', the looks on those faces tear holes in my soul, it's like air raid alarm inside your heart. These pictures are horrible and only show contempt towards children.
We are here to raise, teach, love, respect and protect our children. Not to betray them with illusions and torturing them into unnecessary heavy emotional reactions of distress, anger or fear for our own purposes. It's emotional blackmail. It's abuse. People have been locked up for less.
Photography, Natural; yes. Induced? Never.
Jill Greenberg's 'art' is frankly so full of bull and lacking in any real artistic interest or originality that it seems silly to give the woman any attention. 'About the