Nick Starr's FlickrLicio.us Banned From Flickr
NickStarr.com : Nick Starr dot com � Flickr doesn’t believe in Web 2.0: Wow. I've only heard Nick Starr's version of this story but it would appear that, according to him, Flickr has blocked his site FlickrLicio.us. FlickrLiciou.us was Starr's site (which I'm sure was using a hell of a lot of bandwidth) which focused on presenting women he found on Flickr. Starr would basically hotlink to images of hot women on Flickr and created an aggregated photo album of sorts.
According to Starr, "(FlickrLicio.us) operates on the basis that Flickr “makes it possible to post images hosted on Flickr to outside websites. This use is accepted (and even encouraged!). However, pages on other websites which display images hosted on flickr.com must provide a link back to Flickr from each photo to its photo page on Flickr.” - Per the Flickr TOS.
The nature of the site is and shouldn’t be the matter at hand. The site operates under full compliance of the Flickr TOS. I have personally emailed with Butterfield and Heather Champ about the site. Heather asked me to remove any posts that contain links back to the pictures hosted on Flickr if the owner of the photo asks me to do so.
I and the current owner, have complied with every single request that has come in to remove a post that someone requests be removed. "
Starr goes on to claim that he is being selectively targeted in having his site banned by Flickr:
"How about sites that do EXACTLY the same thing as FlickrLicio.us? Wouldn’t Flickr want to block them from displaying pictures as well? They aren’t though. WHY FLICKRLICIO.US?
For evidence of this check FlickrBabes, FlickrChicks, and ChicksnBreasts. They all still have photos displayed on their sites. They provide the same service as FlickrLicio.us does, but have not mastered the precision and are not covering a scope as wide as FlickrLicio.us is. "
Further, Starr claims that Flickr management will not reply to his requests for an explanation.
"The owner of the site has sent emails to Stewart and Heather as well as Caterina Fake (VP Marketing & Community at Ludicorp) addressing the concerns it has. There has not been any reply to a single piece of communication."
These are some pretty serious allegations and I find it hard to believe that we have all of the facts at present. I'm going to email this link to some of the folks at Flickr and see if we can get more clarification on the matter at hand.
A couple of thoughts come to mind. 1. Perhaps Flickr is worried that women who show up on Starr's site will sue them (they can't always control who posts photos of who) or 2. Perhaps they (or their corporate owners Yahoo!) just find the objectification of women itself distasteful and choose to be arbitrary in this case. Whatever the case I'd like to hear an explanation for myself on this one.
Update: Stewart Butterfield from Flickr responds:
Hi Nick - I was going to comment on the Flickrlicious site, but I didn't see any way to leave comments there.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with social networking (??) or Web 2.0: it's pretty simple. In two parts:
(1) Flicklicious is a business. Flickr isn't around to serve businesses, but people - we're quite upfront about the "for personal use" thing.
(2) Each Flickrlicious page served ~2-4MB of photos from Flickr. It's also a popular site. That adds up to gigs and gigs and gigs of transfer a month. Good for Flickrlicious since it saves on bandwidth (and hosting) costs. But it's bad for Flickr and is an abuse of a system designed to help people get their photos out onto the rest of the web, and not lock them up in Flickr.
To be perfectly honest, we definitely don't like the T&A or XXX angles and we don't want it associated with the Flickr brand, but that is definitely not the issue. The same thing would happen to an ad-based site serving Flickr photos about horses or sailboats or boogers.
Carry on!
Update #2: It would appear this morning that perhaps Starr is not being selectively targeted here. FlickrBabes is also showing a message this morning saying that they also can no longer hotlink images from Flickr.
Update #3: According to Ben Barren, who has a rather detailed pro Nick Starr post out on the subject at hand, Nick Starr has agreed to pull all advertising off of FlickrLicio.us in order to better classify as a non-business site per Stewart's concerns above.
Nick has also agreed to work with Flickr to better manage the bandwidth problems.
Per Nick Starr: "This is a general announcement for everyone following the current Flickr / FlickrLicio.us issue. As of 1pm EST today, FlickrLicio.us and ALL of its subdomains will be 100% ad free. Flickr inserts ads in their site for non-paying members. They are making money off of YOUR pictures.. The site is and will never be a commercial venture, simply a person blogging content they find on Flickr to be visually appealing. It is just like ANY weblog.. This covers Stewart’s issue 1: Flicklicious is a business. (2) Each Flickrlicious page served ~2-4MB of photos from Flickr. This can be easily solved. Simply tell me specifically how many pictures maximum you want on the main page. Currently there were 32. What is an acceptable number? FlickrLicio.us would even be willing to cache the photos on its own server, using FlickrLicio.us’ bandwidth for hosting of the photos; however there is the issue of copyright that would come into play. If you know of a solution to this the site can COMPLETELY operate free of Flickr bandwidth."
Update #4: ChicksnBreasts seems to have been shut down as well. From the ChicksNBreasts blog: "I'm not sure why none of the pictures are showing up, but I think it has something to do with this. If flickr is really trying to shut down chicksnbreasts, it won't work. This site has been too much fun to just let die. Stay tuned..."
Update #5: It looks like all three, FlickrLicio.us, ChicksNBreasts and Flickrbabes are all back live again.
Update #6: Stewart Butterfield left the following note on Nick Starr's blog: "Glad it worked out and sorry how it happened. One last thing: it’d be nice if you could remove everyone’s email addresses from the first thread — will save years of additional spam crud."
Whew! Who needs soap operas when you've got all this drama!
posted by Thomas Hawk at 1:02 PM
12 Comments:
This really sucks for both Starr and his audience. I can see if there was something in the TOS that said: Flickr reserves the right to remove content posted by its members on the site or off....
With "reserve the right" being the key. I can also see how a high-profile site using specific content from Flickr could bring/attach negative association with the host service. It's a catch-22, really. Flickr is growing by leaps and bounds and will most likely come across more unexpected uses of its service that they haven't planned for.
I just looked over the TOS. It does have a "reserve the right" statement right in the General Conditions.
------------------
General Conditions
* We reserve the right to modify or terminate the Flickr.com service for any reason, without notice at any time.
* We reserve the right to alter these Terms of Use at any time. If the alterations constitute a material change to the Terms of Use, we will notify you via Flickr's internal messaging service ('FlickrMail') or via internet mail according to the preference expressed on your account. What constitutes a "material change" will be determined at our sole discretion, in good faith and using common sense and reasonable judgement.
------------------
Now my position has changed. Nick should have known that his little gold mine could potentially come to a close at any time. Moreover, I have no doubt that Flickr will go after those other copy-cat sites if they deem them to be inappropriate.
Nick Starr was nothing but a two-bit pornographer, who was using Yahoo's resources for his own gain. Innovative yes, but he had to know that the party wouldn't last.
I posted this on Nick Starr's blog:
--
Hi Nick - I was going to comment on the Flickrlicious site, but I didn't see any way to leave comments there.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with social networking (??) or Web 2.0: it's pretty simple. In two parts:
(1) Flicklicious is a business. Flickr isn't around to serve businesses, but people - we're quite upfront about the "for personal use" thing.
(2) Each Flickrlicious page served ~2-4MB of photos from Flickr. It's also a popular site. That adds up to gigs and gigs and gigs of transfer a month. Good for Flickrlicious since it saves on bandwidth (and hosting) costs. But it's bad for Flickr and is an abuse of a system designed to help people get their photos out onto the rest of the web, and not lock them up in Flickr.
To be perfectly honest, we definitely don't like the T&A or XXX angles and we don't want it associated with the Flickr brand, but that is definitely not the issue. The same thing would happen to an ad-based site serving Flickr photos about horses or sailboats or boogers.
Carry on!
*Yawn*
You can view it from a "they are targeting us because we show boobs" angle and get all chest-thumpy over it or you can understand that it's something that grew out of people that wanted to make it easy to share their cool photos with family and friends and not necessarily to become yet another outlet for people to scrounge some T&A.
What makes anyone think they have a *right* to post whatever they want or link to whatever they want on flickr? Personally if I was the flickr peeps I'd write into their TOS, "we can do whatever we want" and not be apologetic about it. Oh wait, they do, "we reserve the right to" pretty much says suck it up.
I love breasts, I love hot women,I have a suicidegirls.com subscription but if flickr wants to stop giving boob-ooglers a free bandwidth ride I'm all for it.
If flickr gets too much T&A filtering then some idiot journalist will pick it up, sensationalize it, it'll get into the mainstream gestalt and when I tell my grandma to go checkout my mom's 50th birthday party pics she'll tell me how her friends heard from their kids that flickr was basically a pr0n site and she won't go there.
There are so many better outlets to get great pictures of lovely ladies than to siphon off from flickr. As many pro/am photographers that use flickr there are a ton more people just putting up their vacation/wedding/party pictures and I think that is the idea and image flickr wants to stay with, the personal, *approachable*, easy to use, safe space.
I think apologizing after action has already been taken (which seemed to justified IMHO) sets a bad precedent. Furthermore, I completely agree with Shawn's statement:
"What makes anyone think they have a *right* to post whatever they want or link to whatever they want on flickr? Personally if I was the flickr peeps I'd write into their TOS, "we can do whatever we want" and not be apologetic about it."
I recently dealt with a similar situation, and it just lead to more of the same problems.
"What makes anyone think they have a *right* to post whatever they want or link to whatever they want on flickr?"
Posting whatever they want - Becuase people pay to use the service and as long as the content isn't illegal then there should be no problem. Some people don't find boobs offensive and some people find lame ass family photos offensive.
Linking whatever they want - there will certainly be people who abuse the system, and I can understand badwidth leeches being pruned.
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我并没有死广州货架，原来我的心是在右边仓储货架，而是不是左边货架厂。所以在那穿胸一剑之下我并没有死南京货架。
是一阵暴雨把我冲醒了货架公司。听说雨是上天的眼泪深圳货架，也许这天又有人死在那美丽的剑光之下吧服装货架！我张开嘴巴托盘，任雨水打进我的嘴托盘，直冲我的胃塑料托盘。我的伤口又开始流血塑料托盘，但已经不痛了木托盘。试问：仓储笼一个心已经死了的人仓储笼，肉体上的疼痛又算得了什么呢仓储笼？我知道我的刀再练一百年也无法那么美丽仓储笼，那么恨托盘，而且永远别想杀了他托盘。
我退出江湖了手推车，我没有通知江湖上的朋友们静音手推车，并来一个什么金盆洗手静音手推车，因为我的朋友们差不多都被他杀了置物架。我悄悄的走了置物架，隐进了山林之中堆垛架。俨然一个世外高人的样子堆垛架，每天一壶绿茶登高车，放在身边的几上登高车，然后或盯着一朵白云超市手推车，或盯着一片树叶物流手推车，或双目紧闭物流台车。我的刀在玉盆中泡了七七四十九天角钢货架，已经没有血腥味了角钢货架。然后我把它放在我的屋顶轻型货架，任它风吹雨打轻型货架。
十年就这年过去了中型货架。为何今天天忽然想起那柄剑中型货架，那道剑光重型货架？而且内心为什么如此不安重型货架？不应该是这样的仓库货架，对于一个喝了十年绿茶的人来说服装货架，面对死上海货架，也已不再惧怕精品货架，不再不安苏州货架，但今天又为何如此呢托盘货架？
莫非是他青岛货架，和他的剑库房货架，加上他的剑光沈阳货架。我已不问江湖之事天津货架，想他十年前也应该坐上武林盟主的位子了杭州货架，一个武林中人做了武林盟主山东货架，这一生还有什么要求的呢文件柜？
我不停的喝着绿茶工具柜。绿茶静心工具柜。但此时怎么也静不下来零件柜。茶已尽工作台。平时茶尽之时工作台，正也是日落之时工作桌。
一定快有什么事情发生了工作桌。
剑还是那美丽的剑Google左侧排名，如果再加上一道剑光吹塑机，就会形成剑的艺术色带，武学的艺术电源插座。
我问反光背心：为何还来找我滚针轴承，我已在十年之前就退出江湖了夜光粉。
他说文化石：因为你没死缎带，因为我没有对手风火轮。
我说激光打标机：十年前已不是你的对手平衡机，何况现在十年未动刀大功率led。
他说磁力泵：放眼天下梯子，只有你一个人是我的对手网眼袋，也只你一个人对我的威胁无尘布。
我不再说话手摇手电筒，因为我不知道说什么手板，我知道我十年前就开始找我毛巾布，发现我没有死就开始找我磁钢。我不死促销台，他心不安模具钢材。
他说时尚配饰：拿出你的刀筛网。
我说齿轮泵：我已无刀天使花房，命托辊，亦可有可无色丁。
他盯着我广告衫，握剑的手越来越紧钢坯，我知道那道美丽的剑光可能随时发出过滤网。在那美丽过后疏水阀，我的生命将画上句号胸章。
阳光照在了刀上发热管，反射到他的脸上手机耳机。他发现了那把刀螺杆，我的刀插销，宝刀蝴蝶，没有鞘的刀工具包。
刀已在我手中点钞机，刀还是那把刀配电箱，人却已不是那个人流苏，因为心不是那颗心沙滩巾。
他为了杀我竟找了我十年氯化镁，而为了和我比武竟帮我从屋顶拿下我的刀来双面胶带，并放在我的手中碳纤维。我忽然发现排线，他也变了汽车座垫，他在后悔十年前将所有高手都杀绝珍珠奶茶。
高手的悲哀太阳伞。
我握紧了刀桥架，我看着他的眼tpr，已经不再像十年前那样明亮了钢丝。
他的剑划出柴油发电机组，划出一道美丽的剑光护栏。我想围栏，这十年他大概在不停地使自己的剑光更美围栏。
我的刀也出了隔离网。简单的动作隔离网，一刀刺进了他的胸网片。那道美丽的光忽然停止网片，停在我的衣服上南京货架。
他说北京货架：这也是艺术北京货架，杀人的艺术北京货架，想不到你十年不动刀还懂这个艺术仓储货架。
我说仓储货架：因为我不想再让你痛苦了广州货架。
他说广州货架：谢谢货架厂。
我走了货架公司。我头也不回的走了塑料托盘。没有取回我的刀塑料托盘，因为我觉得它在我身边已经没用塑料托盘，我后悔我十年前为什么不扔了它塑料托盘？我听到了尸体倒下的声音塑料托盘。我流泪了塑料托盘，我真的不想杀他仓储笼，十年前不想仓储笼，十年后也不想仓储笼，因为我下山时答应过师父仓储笼，一切让着他仓储笼。
我叹了一口气仓储笼。远去仓储笼。
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