One Bush
So I’ve been hassled and harassed many time in the past for shooting photographs in privately owned public spaces (Starbucks, PF Chaings, Toys ‘R Us, the new burger spot on Sacramento St. at Drumm, Tosca, Grand Central Terminal in New York, etc.) but yesterday was the first time I’ve actually been harassed on a public street over photography.
Yesterday I was shooting some photos of One Bush St. (the building where Bush and Market Streets intersect) when their security guard came out of his little glass jewelbox lobby hut to ask me to stop taking photos of the building. He said it was illegal. I moved to the sidewalk and continued taking photos and he again asked me to stop. When I told him I was on a public street sidewalk he said that actually they owned the sidewalk and that I was going to have to stop taking photographs.
At this point I told the little guy to call the police and have me arrested which he said he did. He then proceeded to follow me around the building, from Bush St. to Battery St. to Market St. to Sansome St. and try to physically put his hand in front of the lens of my camera as I shot the building. Fortunately I was taller than he was so I was able to hold the camera out of his range. It was kind of comedic actually.
Although I’ve been harassed many, many times for taking photos (the camera goes with me virtually everywhere) this was the first time I was accosted by a security guard on a public sidewalk.
I was looking forward to the interchange between myself the security guard and a cop (who I doubt he could really get to show up even though he kept insisting they were coming to arrest me) but I had to get going and was done shooting the building. So after about 10 minutes I was on my way.
I’d encourage anyone with a camera to stop by One Bush if you’re in the neighborhood and fire off a few more shots to annoy this guy.
I know I’ll be back.
Update: Boing Boing picked up this story and of course from there the traffic goes nuts. There is now a photo contest to shoot photos of the building and a meet up planned on Saturday at noon to shoot the building. Also if you think it’s stupid that a building’s owners would try to prohibit you from taking photos of it from a public street feel free to drop them a line. I got a couple of bounce backs (apparently Jerry Speyer and Peter Berg are on vacation, go figure) but here’s some contact info:
Alfred Palmer, apalmer@tishmanspeyer.com
Peter Berg, Managing Director, pberg@tishmanspeyer.com
Jerry Speyer, President and CEO, jspeyer@tishmanspeyer.com
Robert Tishman, Chairman, rtishman@tishmanspeyer.com
John Miller, Regional Director – West Coast, jmiller@tishmanspeyer.com
Theodore Schweitzer, Chief of Staff, Assistant to the President, tschweitzer@tishmanspeyer.com
Carl Shannon, Regional Director for Silicon Valley and San Francisco, cshannon@tishmanspeyer.com
Did it ever dawn on anyone that the guard you’re going to be annoying may well not be the same one who caused the problem in the first place?
I have zero sympathy for someone who lies about the law and harasses people. If your employer demands you be a jerk it’s not rocket science to find another job at this bottom rung. Besides, I’ve seen way too much overt agression from these rent-a-thugs to believe that “just following orders” malarky.
I have as a contrast police officers. Shooting at night I’ve been questioned by the San Diego police a few times. No lies. No aggression. A few business-like questions, maybe a request for I.D., when I start talking about art they roll their eyes and leave. Nothing about security requires you to be a jerk. That’s a CHOICE, one well worth condemning.
Even if their locality lets them eject people from a sidewalk easement they own, that does not give them the right to give arbitrary orders like “no photos.” It give them the right to ask you to leave and that’s it. Until they make that request you’re free to ignore them. Then you step off the curb into the street and you’re set.
It’s also worth noting that California has no state law enumerating an offense of trespassing on private premises open to the public. You’d have to look up city ordinances to see what the deal is.
It’s worth actually reading Civil Code 1008:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/civ/1006-1009.html
In rough terms, it says that if they put up those signs, the property will never become an easement.
Section 1009 goes on to explain that Section 1008 is intended to *encourage public use of private land.*
I don’t know the details of the Venetian case, but I suspect that they’d have a hard time if anyone pushed this issue in court. (Also, I realized that CA != NV, but the basic issues are similar, and ultimately Constitutional.)
(Sorry I missed the meetup, I was at the SJGP clicking away.)
-Z
“Then you step off the curb into the street and you’re set.”
I had thought about that. Then I got to wondering, “But what about jay walking laws?”
8o)
Gongrats on the event and the cool photos!
Not sure if chris still checks this out, but here it goes
The social class you were bashing earlier, well keep in mind his education is about the same as most men and women in the armed forces protecting your right to argue this issue.
And BTW you said social class, not class. Also you were bashing his education and pay as a refrence to his social class. Just admit when you are wrong.
If I was the security guard I probally would have walked over to the photographer and said in a very stern voice “IF YOUR GOING TO TAKE PICTURES, (wisper Go to the other side of the road).”
Oh and Chris, dont bother with a witty and very well written, educated come back. I dont check here at all, just caught a link and thought you needed to be straightend out.
In DC, a lot of the government places around here won’t let you take photos of their buildings or even of the barriers. Not from the sidewalk, the street, anything like that.
It is endlessly distressing to me
how many “normal” Americans don’t understand the implications of losing civil liberties…or just don’t care.
It’s just PIG IGNORANCE. Sorry.
So, you think its OK to take pictures of any public people in any public place? I do too. But since I’m not a hypocrite I won’t complain when Big Bro installs cameras on every street corner.
One Day Iwas Taking Photos of a local cemetery and train station.
To make a long story short, a month later a police man knocked on my door and questioned me about that day. Why I was taking photos, etc.
Crazy world we live in.
Similarly, I got accosted by a security guard in Chase Tower in Dallas. He told me that people hadn’t been allowed to take pictures since 9-11 (false: I’d taken pictures there on my previous trip to Dallas AFTER 9-11) and that if I tried taking pictures of the building even from public grounds, they could still call the Dallas Police and have me arrested. Never mind that they are always hosting wedding parties up in the Sky Lobby and if you needed to get photos of the Chase Building, I’m sure there are plenty of pre-existing photos already online. Jesus.
They don’t have the right to take away your camera or to expose your film or take it. If you are on private property, they can ask you to stop taking pictures while on the property, but they can’t prevent you from taking pictures while off-property.
I’ll head to One Bush sometime in the next couple of weeks.
-PixelFish
If a rent a cop Haraases you saying its policy tell them to show you a copy of the policy and give you a copy. If they can’t come up with the paper work then take the time the next day or even that day to go to city hall and talk to a city or town officals about these policys. If Rent a Cops are inforcing Illegal laws then they and the buildings owners are breaking public laws. ANd I read in another part of this blog that a Rent a cop threaten someone and the police officer did nto do anything well don’t take it that the police office won’t do anything go to the police station and file charges and make sure you have the officers badge number and name. If this is what we call security then thats bad security when a police officer does not do his job. The way to win is do the end run around everyone public property is everyones property not the private corporations. Also if you do it this way then its in the public record and you can use that to embrarass these places.
I have heard elsewhere that some buildings are copyrighted. Is this true? If so, where can I find out which ones are? I am scanning my older pictures and would like to post them, but don’t want to be sued.
Check out these “Amateur Photographer, not a terrorist” t-shirts. Maybe that will help.
Architectural copyright law has an explicit exception for photographs/drawings of buildings on public view (that is, almost all of them). Anyone who tells you that you can’t shoot or post their building due to copyright laws is feeding you enough BS to fertilize 40 acres.
See:
http://www.aepronet.org/pn/vol5-no2.html
scroll to paragraph headed “limitations…
See also:
http://www.aepronet.org/pn/vol5-no2.html
scroll to “Pictorial Representations…”
Some buildings do claim trademark protection, but unless you’re selling something with the image on it you’re safe. And the one trademarked building vs. photographer case I know of, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame vs. Gentile, the photographer won, although there are some folks scratching their heads about this one.
Actual Gentile decision:
biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/IP/trademark/rock_and_roll.htm
Someone who thinks the 6th circuit lost its marbles:
http://www.ustrademarklawyer.com/RockandRoll.htm
There are those of us who don’t live in the US who watch with alarm every day the erosion of civil liberties that has vtaken place in your country.
But to me what is far more alarming is the way people defend this rubbish – the government and business now seem to get away with anything by claiming its terrorism.
Here is a simple fact of life : A security guard wont stop a terrorist taking pictures of a building. Its that simple. Being parnoid and running around mindlessly wont discourage terrorism in any way – its moronic to think so.
Wake up and smell reality – using a fear of terrorism to strip away your rights is not a good thing – it wont help you, it wont win some mythical war on terrorism and it wont do anything but leave you with less rights.
I am an aussie. On the wall of my office is a framed copy of the US declaration of independance and the bill of rights – these are here because they are living documents, statements of freedom – and they are slowly being subverted by a government that seems to have little to offer but fear mongering and panic. Its sad and you should not accept it.
To people who think this will help i advise reading about terrorism without concentrating on 9/11 – The government of the UK spent 70 years fighting a terrorist battle without any success as an example until it learned to sit down and listen to what was being said and begin a dialogue.
America – a great country with a worrying government right now. very worrying.
Fact: Social classes do exist in America. Whether that is right or wrong is not up to me. Fact: Your aversion to recognize this demonstrates tremendous anxiety about your own position in this strata. You anonymous trolls can be in denial all you want. But I doubt any of you are capable of “straightening me out”. (I know you’re reading this you cowardly troll and I also know that you are too inarticulate to actually make a valid point on this topic) My original statement has been loaded with a lot of false assumptions and presumptions. I was referring to a security guard, apparently over-worked by sitting on his brains all day, who took intense pleasure in storming out the door to rant and scream that I was not allowed to take pictures of the exterior of the Woolworth Building. In fact, he was wrong and I told him so. If he had walked out calmly and addressed me politely, asking me instead of telling me, there would have been a different outcome. Again, he clearly had some issues. I just know his kind and yes I am generalizing. He feels a lack of empowerment in other parts of his life and feels the need to put on a cheap, polyester uniform, ride the train into Manhattan from the South Bronx, and shit all over any and all of the people he sees as being below him for the time he is ruling over his desk. He has a need to do this because any kind of power is lacking from the rest of his life. I’ve encountered plenty of professional/cool security guards while checking into buildings all over Manhattan. Very few are like this guy was. There can be dignity in any job whether it is making art or sweeping the floor. But stop trying to load all of your baggage into the point I was trying to make.
A lot of you are adding a lot of your own assumptions to Christopher’s point. It is quite a stretch to say that people in the military have the same level of education of the security guard he is describing. I know people serving in Iraq who went to really good schools, some of them Ivies. None of these super-dick, uber-aggressive security guards are acting the way they are because they love their jobs and care about protecting the buildings (apparently from the make-believe dangers of people actually looking at these buildings). They are being jerks because they think their jobs entitle them to be. He could have been a bit more generous with his fellow man, but that’s what I got from it. Oh an yes, specifically those soliders at Abu Grahb who led prisioners around on leashes, they probably are of the same “level of education and social class” as some of the security guards who have been described here.
I agree with everyone who says we should give up our rights because we live in a different world. God knows the twin towers would still be up if we werent allowed to take pictures. Oh wait, that was about the dumbest reasoning i have seen. If you want to give up yoru rights, i know alot of people who would like them.
tony in wisconsin
yes that kind of treatment is absurd.. I don’t know what the securityguard was trying to achieve.
People have rights, but that securityguard did’nt even have the right to jump in front of the camera or harrassing mr. Hawk. Anybody has the right to not be harrassed in the street by anyone when taking pictures.
Saying it is against the law to take pictures is abusing ones authority (as a security guard! again what was this guy thinking…) and ridiculing the constitution..
Truly an excellent idea, holding mass shoots of places. I would only suggest having literature explaining what was going on to pass out to everyone who wandered by.
Usually when I get stopped, I have the advantage. I ask for them to cite the law forbidding photography. When they don’t know the cite, I tell them there is none, and as a paralegal and state trial court officer, I know this to be fact. Police are nice about things, and understanding. It’s corporations and such that usually aren’t.
D. A. in Nashville TN
I can’t believe all these dumbasses response. Besides, it’s not like you took a great picture or anything.
I hate all the random, anonymous posts from people who obviously have no intrest in photography… Why Post Your Opinion??? And there actually are great pictures in many of the links from this site… But you all really need to let chris rest… the whole conversation with him has nothing to do with pictures, rights, infringement of rights or anything even related to the original blog… its all just a bunch of chris and anon telling each other they are wrong when nobody else cares and we all just sit here and roll our eyes at the idiocracy of their posts… thats what i think… any objections? jk.
I am an amature photographer(very amature) I am also an Account Executive for a very large Private Security Firm in the Metro NY area. Now as far as being accousted by the security officer he should not have done that. But people let’s understand a few things here, #1 before anyone makes light of or demeans the important job that the nations 1.1 million security officers perform on a daily basis, we need to remember the 250 lives that where lost on Sept 11. And yes they all where SECURITY GUARDS. We need to remember the thousands of lives, including children that where saved by these brave men and women whom stayed at thier posts guiding people out of the burning towers and guiding them to safety. Only to lose thier lives themselves! We also need to realize that security officers are following the directives of clients and bussiness owners. We need to also realize that these men and women whom put on a security uniform and in some cases put their lives in danger do so for not the highest paycheck in the world. While this paticular incident should not have taken place if the security officer followed proper proceedures, but to demean all security officers is just not fair. Since Sept 11 the country as we knew it changed, which is unfortunate just remember when you come accross another security officer maybe cut him a little slack, these guys and gals get abuse all day long and they are human as well.
Thanks for allowing me the space to post my comments.
R Tremblay
NY
If a terrorist REALLY wanted to get pics of a particular building, I’m sure a Google search would give them all the information they need. There are even TV shows that show exactly how a certain building was built, giving terrorist the perfect opportunity to plan an attack. They show exactly where support beams are located and where the weak areas are.
And as it was written before, thousands more people die from countless other things. Every two days in the US, 3,000 people die from tobacco related diseases. But nothing is done to stop tobacco companies. But when 3,000 people die because of a comparatively rare terrorist event, everyone goes crazy and freaks out about security. If the recent London to America Camera/liquid explosive attack would have suceeded, maybe at most, 2,000 people in the planes would have died. McDonalds and other fast food companies contribute to the death of 2,000 per day of obese Americans who are hooked on their food.
Now, I’m not saying I don’t care at all that those people died at the WTC. I am very much saddened. But I am saying that in the long run, their deaths aren’t important for the nation as a whole. Security shouldn’t be THE most important thing that we focus on when there are so many other problems to be addressed. But no one cares about these other things. Everyone just goes along with the crowd and supports outrageous policies such as the banning of photography around tall buildings, and Bush’s plan to catch Osama Bin Laden. As for planning attacks, it will just be the responsibility of another nut case.
Yeah I myself have had a run in with a security guy. In this run in with a security personel walmart security person, which was not uniformed, I guess under cover?My friend goes “hey its the security guy” the security guy then stops my friend and gives my friend and I a chat, ” I’ll make sure you wont get into another walmart again , if you dont stop” things like that. I wonder if I have the right to know if a person is a security guard or not especialy when one is not uniformed. PLEASE THOMAS HAWK’S YOU GOTTA READ THIS I NEED SOME REAL LAWS ETC. ABOUT THIS SITUATION.
Thank you.
I was walking on a public sidewalk in a dilapidated,
small downtown with my mother, people are usually
absent. I saw an old sign on the side of a building
and took a photo of it, then I heard some angry man in
a blue suit say “You can’t do that!” or something like
that. I put my camera away, looked at him, and then
he motioned with his finger to “come closer” angrily
as if I were a child, he seemed to think that I needed
a scolding (I look young). I didn’t know him, nor his
intent so I thought it best to “walk away quietly”. I
was wearing dark sunglasses at the time and I did not
think his command was very polite nor professional so
I ignored him as is best to do with people with a
temper. A fence separated him from me, he was on the
side of the building, talking on a cell phone at the
time. I continued walking with my mother on the
public sidewalk, not saying anything to the man, who
did not state who he was or who he worked for. He
then called on his ‘talkie’ to someone else saying to
watch out for a guy (me), he was blowing it out of
proportion. I walked on the public sidewalk, crossed
the street and looked behind me, another man in a blue
suit was on the sidewalk looking for ‘me’. Nothing
happened to me but I became very frightened, as did my
mother, she’s very sensitive. I’m sure the cameras in
the area filmed me and probably think they are
“analyzing them” for this incident.
The building where this man was situated is a Federal
courthouse, also to note, it has a plaque on it which
denotes it as a historic building. I never took
photos of the courthouse, just an old building next to
it.
I don’t want to seek any action, just know where I
stand in this situation because it seems pretty absurd
but I understand the current paranoia of the “security
state” as well. This could have gotten out of hand
for no reason, as they “guards” were big and didn’t
look too friendly. Are they private guards or fed
employees?
Any response is appreciated.
2 years ago, in Ottawa, I was hassled by transit security for taking this picture of an old bus, while standing on an extremely and very public sidewalk. When I refused to identify myself to them, they called the cops on me. What followed was a very entertaining shouting match for the bunch of nearby construction workers who were ending their shift, as the coppette (120 pounds of very hot bitch) would not let me place a word as she gave me shit (of course, none ever said which law I broke). It finally ended when the cops realized that by every minute that passed, they looked more and more silly.
Hello, I enjoy reading everyones stories on the rights to take a photo, I had been harass many times, I was in Tipton, Missouri. On assignment to take a photo of the front of the prison with the name on a sign in the foreground, after about 12 frames of shooting I was approch by a guard telling me that I cant do that and I needed to come in to see the warden, I was polite about it, so I proceed to the warden office with a smile and introduce myself, the warden was nice too, the warden had to get a clearance through the state capital about me, so I was in the warden office for 30 min. I ask why is it not ok to take a photo of just the front of the place, the warden said for security reason so no one can plan a escape, even if i was on public sidewalk still cant take pictures, I could have been a prick and said that I have the right to, but I decided to play it cool and hope everything will go smooth. After that the warden got a phone call from the state capital and said that I was cleared and ok and Im free to go.
Hello Shutterbugs,
I called the Dept. of Homeland Security, to find out what they had to say about photographers and what can or cannot be photograph. They said that no federal building cannot be photograph unless I go inside and get permission. I said even if im on the public sidewalk, still need permission even if on the sidewalk. I ask if theres any webpages on this topic on their website, they said it in the works. ummm. Now are they right about shooting federal buildings from the public sidewalk, or are they making up their own laws and abusing their authority? Can they do that? ummmmm!!!! After the conversation I ask is their some kind of permit I can get to photograph such places? They told me to go to http://WWW.ICE.Gov, cant find anything there, must’ve started to give me the run around.
Im gonna keep trying to get some straight answers out of the again. If Dept of Homeland Security is so concern, why dont they give background check and offer a photo pass to honable citizens to photograph anything.
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
I was also recently harassed for taking photographs. I was taking photographs of the public waiting area inside of the Greyhound station when security guards told me I had to delete the pictures from my camera. They said that because of 9/11 I can’t take pictures inside a transit area, because it’s a “Threat to the president.”
Full story here – http://earcaraxe.com/blog/?p=48
More likely, the reason they’re jumpy about photographers around One Bush is that it houses a major telecom exchange.
This was a refurb from Apple. I got the Aluminum skinned, 20 in Imac. Oh wow! And I thought I loved my old Macbook! Financial ManagementCie La Vie Macbook- I love my new Imac!
[...] wording of the plaques, mixed in with a little Post-9/11 hysteria, have had a chilling effect on the use of public space. Here in San Francisco, citizens are savvy enough to not leave well enough alone, but the message is [...]
I am a 65 year old taxpayer in Cleveland , Ohio. The Cleveland Clinic Foundation has a new building here. I was standing in an area that our local politicians vacated a street to give to the Cleveland Clinic. Suddenly 3 marked police cars pulled up and ordered me to leave, saying that taking photos of their buildings was prohibited. I walked to my car parked in a lot at 9500 Euclid. The signs in the lot stated that Key Bank controlled the parking area. Since it was 10:30 PM, Key Bank did not ask me to leave. I started shooting from the parking lot. The three police cars with the 3 armed officers fol-lowed me and instructed me to leave again. I asked them what right they had to order me from a public area. I was afraid I had made a sharp left and ended up in Moscow. Complained to the Cleveland Police and they claimed that the Clinic Police ruled that area of the city. NO HELP. Complained to Mayor’s action line and was sent an e-mail thanking me for writing. GLENN BECK AND RUSH LIMBAUGH ARE RIGHT. WE ARE LOSING OUR FREEDOMS.
[...] on making photographs in public and publicly accessible spaces. The reports of photographers being harassed, detained, and threatened with arrest are now legion (my favorite anecdote being Keith Garsee’s [...]
I was polite about it, so I proceed to the warden office with a smile and introduce myself, the warden was nice too, the warden had to get a clearance through the state capital about me, so I was in the warden office for 30 min. I ask why is it not ok to take a photo of just the front of the place, the warden said for security reason so no one can plan a escape, even if i was on public sidewalk still cant take pictures
This was the funniest story of a harassment I have read.
and the photo you posted is beautiful.
As for those who are so willing to give up your rights, go right ahead, I’ll fight for mine.
it is not illegal to take a photograph, its a hobby and for some a profession for gods sake.
stop and think where it could go from there if you don’t stop it now.
thanks for this info and for making it public